Published on 05/14/2012
The Human League
or, Of Extraordinary Gentlemen
By Eli Shiffrin, Carsten Haese, and James Bennett
This Article from: Carsten Haese
Cranial Translation
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Note: This article is over two years old. Information in this article may be out of date due to subsequent Oracle and/or rules changes. Proceed with caution.
Who you gonna call?
Let's celebrate the Human triumph by answering more rules questions! Unlike a bunch of Demons and Angels, there were no rules questions in the Helvault, so please help us keep going by sending in more questions. You can contact us by clicking the Email Us button, by sending email to moko@cranialinsertion.com , or by tweeting at @CranialTweet. You'll receive an individual answer by one of our writers, and your question may appear in a future issue, possibly accompanied by a terrible pun or obscure pop culture reference!
Q: I control Geist Trappers that are paired with a Borderland Ranger, and they're blocking my opponent's air force consisting of two 4/4 Angel tokens. The Angel token that's blocked by my Ranger is wielding a Moonsilver Spear. What happens?
A: Your Ranger bites the dust in the first combat damage step, which breaks the bond they had with the Geist Trappers, so the Geist Trappers lose reach. Fortunately, this doesn't mean that the Geist Trappers are no longer blocking their Angel. The legality of the block is only checked when blockers are declared, and any changes that would make the block impossible don't matter after that point. This means that the Geist Trappers still keep the 4/4 Angel token from punching you in the face.
Q: Does Grafdigger's Cage shut down Descendants' Path?
A: It sure does. Descendants' Path tells you to reveal the top card of your library and gives you permission to cast it if it's a creature card. The card is still in your library, though, so the Cage forbids you from casting it, and restrictions always win over permissions.
Q: I control a Runeclaw Bear that's enchanted with Angelic Destiny, while my opponent controls Thrun, the Last Troll, and my opponent hits me with Sudden Disappearance. He says that when Angelic Destiny comes back it has to be attached to his Troll. Is that true?
A: I'm afraid so. Angelic Destiny and your Bear are returned to the battlefield at the same time, and Angelic Destiny has to enter the battlefield attached to a creature that's already there, so your opponent's Troll is the only choice that's available. The fact that the Troll has hexproof doesn't help, either, since Angelic Destiny isn't a spell at that moment, so it's not targeting the Troll. This may sound like insane troll logic, but it's completely legit.
Q: I control ten 1/1 Human tokens. Can I target all of them with Blessings of Nature to trigger Wild Defiance for all of them, and then just give four of them +1/+1 counters?
A: That's a neat idea, but unfortunately it doesn't work. The card doesn't spell this out, but the rules say that when you divide an effect such as Blessings of Nature, each target has to receive at least one of whatever is being divided. This means that you can only target at most four creatures with Blessings of Nature.
Q: I have no cards in hand and I am facing a lethal attack. I activate my Desolate Lighthouse and find that the top card is a Terminus. Can I reveal and cast this miracle to save myself?
A: You can reveal it, but that won't help. Revealing the card triggers an ability that tries to allow you to cast the card during its resolution, but that ability has to wait for the Loothouse's ability to finish resolving before it can even go on the stack, let alone resolve. By the time it does resolve, Terminus is no longer in your hand, so you can't cast it.
Q: Can I cast Peel from Reality with only one creature on the board?
A: No, that's not possible. Peel from Reality needs two targets to be cast: One creature you control and one creature you don't control. Since the same creature can't ever fit both of those criteria at the same time, there have to be at least two creatures on the battlefield to cast Peel from Reality.
What can't we face if we're together?
A: Nope, sorry. Joint Assault has exactly one target, the Lancer. Since that target died a sudden and tragic death, Joint Assault is countered on resolution and none of its effects happen.
Q: If the only creature my opponent controls has hexproof, can I force him to give it to me with Evangelize?
A: Nope. Hexproof doesn't care who chooses the target, it cares who controls the spell. The Evangelize you're trying to cast is a spell you control, so your opponent's hexproof dude can't be targeted by it.
Q: Suppose I have Misthollow Griffin imprinted on Semblance Anvil and I want to cast it from exile. Does it cost
or . A: You'll have to pay full price. The first step of casting the Griffin is to take it from where it is and put it on the stack. At that moment, the Griffin ceases to be "the exiled card" that Semblance Anvil is looking for, so when you calculate the total cost for your spell and ask the Anvil for a discount it says, "Nope, I got nothin'."
Q: Does Torpor Orb prevent soulbond from happening?
A: Certainly! Soulbond is a combination of enter-the-battlefield triggers that are triggered by creatures entering the battlefield, and that's exactly the kind of thing that Torpor Orb doesn't allow.
Q: I control two creatures and an inanimate Angel's Tomb, and I cast Goldnight Redeemer. Can I choose the order of triggers so that the Tomb animates before the Redeemer counts my creatures?
A: Sure, that works. Goldnight Redeemer only counts how many creatures you control when its triggered ability resolves. Since both abilities triggered at the same time and you control both abilties, you can arrange them in an order of your choice so that the Tomb's animation ability resolves first.
Q: Does Undiscovered Paradise actually untap after its ability has been used? My Wake Thrasher wants to know.
A: Whether it actually untaps is a philosophical question that I won't touch, but I do know that Wake Thrasher's ability won't trigger anyway. Wake Thrasher's trigger isn't a trigger that looks back in time like a leaves-the-battlefield trigger, so it looks immediately after the event to see if it triggered. Immediately after everything untaps, there isn't an Undiscovered Paradise around, so Wake Thrasher can't trigger off that.
Q: If my opponent casts the first spell during his turn, can I respond with an instant so that my opponent's spell becomes the second spell and I can counter it with Second Guess?
A: No. Second Guess doesn't care how many spells have resolved already, and it doesn't care how many spells are on the stack above or below the targeted spell. It strictly looks at the order in which spells are cast, and only the spell that was cast second in the current turn can be targeted by Second Guess. If your opponent's spell was the first spell that was cast that turn, nothing you do after that point can change that to make it the second spell cast.
Q: If i cast Warp World and put Urabrask the Hidden onto the battlefield, would all my opponent's creatures enter the battlefield tapped?
A: No, they'll enter the battlefield normally. Urabrask only affects creatures that are entering the battlefield if Urabrask is already on the battlefield. Since Warp World is bringing in all creatures at the same time, Urabrask isn't on the battlefield yet when the other creatures are entering the battlefield.
I'm only human
Of flesh and blood I'm made
Of flesh and blood I'm made
A: No, that's not how that works. Trample sets rules for damage assignment, while Gisela changes how damage is dealt. When you assign combat damage, you assign 5 points of damage from the Militia, and trample neither knows nor cares that the damage will be doubled later. Of that 5 damage, at least 2 has to be assigned to the blocker, and the leftovers can be assigned to your opponent. Then, the damage is doubled and dealt, so you'll deal at least 4 damage to the blocker and at most 6 damage to your opponent.
Q: Let's say I control five 3/3 Elephant tokens and my opponent casts Slagstorm to get rid of them. How much mana do I have to spend to save all of my tokens with Divine Deflection?
A: You can get away with as little as X=5, so you'd spend
. This sets up a prevention effect for the next 5 damage that would be dealt to any combination of you and your permanents. Since Slagstorm is dealing 15 points of such damage at once, you get to choose which 5 of those are "next" so that Divine Deflection will prevent them. If you choose 1 damage that's destined for each of your tokens, each token will survive with 2 damage marked on it.Q: I'm in a dire situation and about to lose the damage race. I attack with my Geist of Saint Traft and put my attacking Angel token onto the battlefield. Can I respond to the exile trigger at the end of combat by casting Swords to Plowshares on the token so the token still does damage and I also get 4 life points?
A: Of course! The "exile the token" trigger is a perfectly normal delayed triggered ability. It uses the stack, so you can respond to it with Swords to Plowshares to squeeze some extra juice out of the Angel.
Q: Hypergenesis is resolving and brings out Oblivion Ring, Phyrexian Metamorph, and Terastodon, in that order. I've heard that Terastodon and Oblivion Ring can target each other with their abilities, but Metamorph can't copy the Terastodon. Why is that?
A: The main difference is that Terastodon and Oblivion Ring have triggered enter-the-battlefield abilities, while Phyrexian Metamorph has an ability that replaces how it enters the battlefield.
The triggered abilities trigger during Hypergenesis' resolution, but they have to wait until Hypergenesis is done resolving before they can be put on the stack. The targets are chosen at that time, so both Terastodon and Oblivion Ring are on the battlefield then and they can be chosen as targets for each other's abilities.
Phyrexian Metamorph's ability on the other hand is applied in the middle of Hypergenesis' resolution, just as Phyrexian Metamorph enters the battlefield. If it wants to copy something, it has so copy something that's already on the battlefield at that moment. Terastodon isn't there yet, so it can't be chosen.
Q: Can Moonsilver Spear be included in a non-white Commander deck?
A: Sure! The Commander rules don't care about color words on cards. They only care about colored mana symbols and color indicators. Since there are no colored mana symbols or color indicators anywhere on Moonsilver Spear, it is allowed to go in any Commander deck.
Q: My opponent uses Dark Impostor's first ability to exile my commander in hopes of getting its activated ability. I can thwart his plan by putting my commander back into the command zone instead, can't I?
A: Absolutely. The Impostor only gets activated abilities from cards that are actually in the exile zone and that are there due to its first ability. Your commander is not in the exile zone, so it won't help the Impostor even a little bit.
And that's all the time we have for this week. Please come back next week when Eli brings us more good news, or at least rules questions, from Innistrad. Until then, may you enjoy the unbearable lightness of being Human.
- Carsten Haese
About the Author:
Carsten Haese is a former Level 2 judge based in Toledo, OH. He is retired from active judging, but he still writes for Cranial Insertion and helps organize an annual charity Magic tournament that benefits the National MS Society.
Concernig the question about Gisela, Blade of Goldnight and Thraben Militia, why is the damage not doubled when it impacts the 2/2 zombie, then for the player. i.e 5/4 trample - damage doubled to 10, then -2 for zombies toughness killing it, leaving 8 points remainig. Trample damage then carries on over to be applied to player which as a new victim recieves 16 damage.
#2
• Date: 2012-05-14 • Time: 08:38:01 •
Rocket_Knight
About Undiscovered Paradise & Wake Thrasher:
I\'m with nyth here.
You said the event is checked after it occurred but I don\'t see what it has to do with the answer. The whole point of checking after is checking if there are any active triggered abilities that fit the event not if the event actually happened. (Similarly LTB abilities check whether the ability existed before the event happened, not whether the event actually occurred)
It seems like you either didn\'t evade the philosophical question, or that you\'ve imposed a new philosophical question:\"even if it would untap and leave at the same time, would it be visible/accountable/whatever?\" and answered with a \"No\".
@nyth: Mesmeric Orb doesn\'t have any rulings that collide with the ruling in this article. So it doesn\'t really add anything to the argument.
Edit: LTB not ETB.
Also, it seems like backslashes are added to apostrophes and quotation marks after editing
Last edited on 2012-05-14 11:22:45 by Rocket_Knight
I\'m with nyth here.
You said the event is checked after it occurred but I don\'t see what it has to do with the answer. The whole point of checking after is checking if there are any active triggered abilities that fit the event not if the event actually happened. (Similarly LTB abilities check whether the ability existed before the event happened, not whether the event actually occurred)
It seems like you either didn\'t evade the philosophical question, or that you\'ve imposed a new philosophical question:\"even if it would untap and leave at the same time, would it be visible/accountable/whatever?\" and answered with a \"No\".
@nyth: Mesmeric Orb doesn\'t have any rulings that collide with the ruling in this article. So it doesn\'t really add anything to the argument.
Edit: LTB not ETB.
Also, it seems like backslashes are added to apostrophes and quotation marks after editing
Last edited on 2012-05-14 11:22:45 by Rocket_Knight
#3
• Date: 2012-05-14 • Time: 11:08:37 •
Natedogg
Drycanthra: With trample, you have to assign what would be lethal damage to all creatures blocking it before you can start assigning damage to the defending player. You don't take effects that could prevent the damage or increase the damage dealt. In this case, the zombie has a toughness of 2, so you have to assign 2 damage to you. You do not take into account Gisela's ability that will double that damage into account.
So the Militia can assign two damage to the 2/2, and the remaining three to the defending player. That damage is then doubled, dealing four to the zombie and six to the defending player.
So the Militia can assign two damage to the 2/2, and the remaining three to the defending player. That damage is then doubled, dealing four to the zombie and six to the defending player.
#4
• Date: 2012-05-14 • Time: 11:12:25 •
In the Q: Does Grafdigger\'s Cage shut down Descendants\' Path?
Although it wasn\'t specifically asked: Does Descendants Path go on the top or the bottom of the library?
In other words, does the Otherwise of Descendants\' Path refer only to creature cards, or does it refer only to cards other than creatures? Does it matter?
Last edited on 2012-05-14 15:36:34 by CyberChip
Although it wasn\'t specifically asked: Does Descendants Path go on the top or the bottom of the library?
In other words, does the Otherwise of Descendants\' Path refer only to creature cards, or does it refer only to cards other than creatures? Does it matter?
Last edited on 2012-05-14 15:36:34 by CyberChip
#5
• Date: 2012-05-14 • Time: 15:23:41 •
@drycanthra @natedogg:
i think dryc is just taking the term "trample" i little too literally. it's not really a "I trample footstep by footstep and all creatures in my way get trampled untill i get to my opponent to CRUSH him!" ... "economic damage assignment" is prob. more accurate XD
..and i too believe the Orb and Thrasher see the untap. Unless it's really a "check before untap step" - "check after untap step" - "see what permanents have changed", which i don't think it is. The way i see it the trigger triggers, but waits till upkeep to go on the stack.
i think dryc is just taking the term "trample" i little too literally. it's not really a "I trample footstep by footstep and all creatures in my way get trampled untill i get to my opponent to CRUSH him!" ... "economic damage assignment" is prob. more accurate XD
..and i too believe the Orb and Thrasher see the untap. Unless it's really a "check before untap step" - "check after untap step" - "see what permanents have changed", which i don't think it is. The way i see it the trigger triggers, but waits till upkeep to go on the stack.
#6
• Date: 2012-05-14 • Time: 15:29:58 •
Carsten
Quote (nyth):
|
So, based on the Undiscovered Paradise and Wake Thrasher question, how does the paradise lost land interact with Mesmeric Orb. Is it the same? Do both the Orb and Thrasher not see the untap at all? Surely the permanents don't need to still be there for them to have not untapped. The trigger would go on the stack the first moment they can but the untap has caused something to trigger that isn't actually asking if that permanent is still around. Effects like that usually say "something triggers/happens if that permanent is still on the battlefield" and are usually specific like that. Either the land untaps or it doesn't. Whether the land is still there should be moot. Shouldn't it? |
Wake Thrasher's ability triggers on the transition of a permanent's status from "tapped" to "untapped." In Undiscovered Paradise's case, it goes from "tapped" to "not there" in a single event, so Wake Thrasher doesn't notice any untapping that may or may not have occurred while Undiscovered Paradise was bounced.
#7
• Date: 2012-05-14 • Time: 15:32:01 •
Carsten
Quote (CyberChip):
|
In the Q: Does Grafdigger's Cage shut down Descendants' Path? Although it wasn't specifically asked: Does Descendants Path go on the top or the bottom of the library? In other words, does the Otherwise of Descendants' Path refer only to creature cards, or does it refer only to cards other than creatures? Does it matter? |
The "otherwise" goes with "If it's a creature card that shares a creature type with a creature you control." If the condition was true but you chose (or were forced to) not to cast the card, the card stays on top of the library.
#8
• Date: 2012-05-14 • Time: 15:38:45 •
Is there ANY other card like Undiscovered Paradise i should know about? ...because i play Mesmeric Orb, and obviously wrong related to Paradise. stupid \"i-don\'t-untap-if-you-use-me :P\" >:(
#9
• Date: 2012-05-14 • Time: 15:50:54 •
In the Q: I control a Runeclaw Bear that\'s enchanted with Angelic Destiny, while my opponent controls Thrun, the Last Troll, and my opponent hits me with Sudden Disappearance[c]. He says that when [c]Angelic Destiny comes back it has to be attached to his Troll. Is that true?
Now maybe I\'m confused; but, I understood that Angelic Destiny had been enchanted by the owner of Angelic Destiny When Runeclaw Bear goes into exile, my understanding is that when checking state based actions before the first part of Sudden Disappearance before the spell resolves, the Enchantment is on the Bear. Therefore [c]Runeclaw bear[c] goes into exile and Angelic Destiny has a legal target; but, when the Bear goes into exile Angelic Destiny no longer has a legal target, a state based action.
Rule: 704.5n If an Aura is attached to an illegal object or player, or is not attached to an object or player, that Aura is put into its owner\'s graveyard.
So, my understanding is that Angelic Destiny would not go onto the opponent\'s Thrun, the Last Troll but would instead go into the graveyard.
Could someone explain why Angelic Destiny is not in the Graveyard and is instead on the Troll?
Last edited on 2012-05-14 16:31:33 by CyberChip
Now maybe I\'m confused; but, I understood that Angelic Destiny had been enchanted by the owner of Angelic Destiny When Runeclaw Bear goes into exile, my understanding is that when checking state based actions before the first part of Sudden Disappearance before the spell resolves, the Enchantment is on the Bear. Therefore [c]Runeclaw bear[c] goes into exile and Angelic Destiny has a legal target; but, when the Bear goes into exile Angelic Destiny no longer has a legal target, a state based action.
Rule: 704.5n If an Aura is attached to an illegal object or player, or is not attached to an object or player, that Aura is put into its owner\'s graveyard.
So, my understanding is that Angelic Destiny would not go onto the opponent\'s Thrun, the Last Troll but would instead go into the graveyard.
Could someone explain why Angelic Destiny is not in the Graveyard and is instead on the Troll?
Last edited on 2012-05-14 16:31:33 by CyberChip
#10
• Date: 2012-05-14 • Time: 16:25:21 •
Carsten
Quote (reidan):
|
Is there ANY other card like Undiscovered Paradise i should know about? |
Probably not. The only card that includes the phrase "as you untap" in its rules text is Undiscovered Paradise.
Quote (CyberChip):
|
Could someone explain why Angelic Destiny is not in the Graveyard and is instead on the Troll? |
Sudden Disappearance exiles all nonland permanents the targeted player controls simultaneously. The Bear and Angelic Destiny are both exiled by Sudden Disappearance before state-based actions are checked.
#11
• Date: 2012-05-14 • Time: 16:42:25 •
Rocket_Knight
Quote ("Carsten"):
| Wake Thrasher's ability triggers on the transition of a permanent's status from "tapped" to "untapped." In Undiscovered Paradise's case, it goes from "tapped" to "not there" in a single event, so Wake Thrasher doesn't notice any untapping that may or may not have occurred while Undiscovered Paradise was bounced. |
Forgive me for digging into this matter, but I don't understand why whether the land untapped or not is avoided. Why not consider it as "it didn't untap" but rather as "the game didn't see it untap"? Is there any way in which it might matter? (i.e. some hypothetical history checking effect seeing how many times untaps happened etc). If not, isn't it easier to say it didn't untap?
However, I'll understand either way.
Also, even though I can't think of a reason why you'd want to do this: if you have something like Winter Orb, can you choose Undiscovered Paradise as the one your untapping?
#12
• Date: 2012-05-15 • Time: 08:28:34 •
Carsten
Quote (Rocket_Knight):
|
Quote ("Carsten"):
Forgive me for digging into this matter, but I don't understand why whether the land untapped or not is avoided. Why not consider it as "it didn't untap" but rather as "the game didn't see it untap"? Is there any way in which it might matter? (i.e. some hypothetical history checking effect seeing how many times untaps happened etc). If not, isn't it easier to say it didn't untap? However, I'll understand either way. |
I avoided answering that question mostly because the answer doesn't matter to Wake Thrasher. If you can find a situation with real cards in which the difference matters, go ahead and ask us about it :)
Quote (Rocket_Knight):
|
Also, even though I can't think of a reason why you'd want to do this: if you have something like Winter Orb, can you choose Undiscovered Paradise as the one your untapping? |
Sure. If you have a choice about what to untap, you make that choice before you start untapping anything.
#13
• Date: 2012-05-15 • Time: 14:26:03 •
Rocket_Knight
Thanks :)
BTW, It's a bit wacky and unrealistic, but I've been wondering if the following is a tapped equivalent situation:
Spoiler:
- Does this make the robe trying to be destroyed and tapped at the same time?
- If the the player applies totem armor first and then regeneration, will it save the enchantment? Why/How?
BTW, It's a bit wacky and unrealistic, but I've been wondering if the following is a tapped equivalent situation:
Spoiler:
- Does this make the robe trying to be destroyed and tapped at the same time?
- If the the player applies totem armor first and then regeneration, will it save the enchantment? Why/How?
#14
• Date: 2012-05-15 • Time: 16:14:13 •
Rocket_Knight
Okay, found in Wizards\' boards a very interesting thread about Planar Cleansing & totem armor. [link]
Natedogg
Daniel Kitachewsky
I already knew that when two mutually exclusive events try to happen, only one happens. But the important part is that it happens before replacement effects are applied to them.
So the answers are:
The robe would\'t try to get destroyed and tapped at the same time. before applying regeneration, only one destruction event remains and then regeneration replaces it.
There\'s no order to apply in this situation, the enchantment will be saved either way. See the answer above.
I\'d like to thank CI for once again jogging my mind.
Edit: Forgot that an indestructible Brink of Disaster is waiting for the robe to tap. It will see it get tapped and will try to destroy it, so another regeneration is required in order to save it.
Last edited on 2012-05-16 03:01:44 by Rocket_Knight
Natedogg
Daniel Kitachewsky
I already knew that when two mutually exclusive events try to happen, only one happens. But the important part is that it happens before replacement effects are applied to them.
So the answers are:
Quote:
| Does this make the robe trying to be destroyed and tapped at the same time? |
Quote:
| If the the player applies totem armor first and then regeneration, will it save the enchantment? Why/How? |
I\'d like to thank CI for once again jogging my mind.
Edit: Forgot that an indestructible Brink of Disaster is waiting for the robe to tap. It will see it get tapped and will try to destroy it, so another regeneration is required in order to save it.
Last edited on 2012-05-16 03:01:44 by Rocket_Knight
#15
• Date: 2012-05-16 • Time: 02:54:03 •
Fay
"Now maybe I\'m confused; but, I understood that Angelic Destiny had been enchanted by the owner of Angelic Destiny When Runeclaw Bear goes into exile, my understanding is that when checking state based actions before the first part of Sudden Disappearance before the spell resolves, the Enchantment is on the Bear. Therefore [c]Runeclaw bear[c] goes into exile and Angelic Destiny has a legal target; but, when the Bear goes into exile Angelic Destiny no longer has a legal target, a state based action.
Rule: 704.5n If an Aura is attached to an illegal object or player, or is not attached to an object or player, that Aura is put into its owner\'s graveyard.
So, my understanding is that Angelic Destiny would not go onto the opponent\'s Thrun, the Last Troll but would instead go into the graveyard.
Could someone explain why Angelic Destiny is not in the Graveyard and is instead on the Troll?"
State Based Actions are checked after each spell resolution before any player gets priority. So yes, the Bear gets exiled, but so does Angelic Destiny as the spell has to finish resolving before State Based Actions are checked.
Then, at the end of turn when AD gets returned to the battlefield, it has to come in attached to a legal permanent (Which it would not be targeting because Auras do not target unless they are being cast and being put on the stack). The only legal object for it to enchant as it ETB is Thrunn.
Rule: 704.5n If an Aura is attached to an illegal object or player, or is not attached to an object or player, that Aura is put into its owner\'s graveyard.
So, my understanding is that Angelic Destiny would not go onto the opponent\'s Thrun, the Last Troll but would instead go into the graveyard.
Could someone explain why Angelic Destiny is not in the Graveyard and is instead on the Troll?"
State Based Actions are checked after each spell resolution before any player gets priority. So yes, the Bear gets exiled, but so does Angelic Destiny as the spell has to finish resolving before State Based Actions are checked.
Then, at the end of turn when AD gets returned to the battlefield, it has to come in attached to a legal permanent (Which it would not be targeting because Auras do not target unless they are being cast and being put on the stack). The only legal object for it to enchant as it ETB is Thrunn.
#16
• Date: 2012-05-16 • Time: 23:34:08 •
Quote:
| Then, at the end of turn when AD gets returned to the battlefield, it has to come in attached to a legal permanent (Which it would not be targeting because Auras do not target unless they are being cast and being put on the stack). The only legal object for it to enchant as it ETB is Thrunn. |
#17
• Date: 2012-05-17 • Time: 11:05:51 •
Carsten
Quote (CyberChip):
|
So, when Angelic Desitiny enters the battlefield, if there were more than one creature to which AD could be attached, who chooses? I would presume the owner? |
In general, the choice is made by the player under whose control the Aura is entering the battlefield. In this specific case, that's the owner.
#18
• Date: 2012-05-17 • Time: 14:54:13 •
Quote:
|
Robe of Mirrors on Umbra Mystic, opponent with Avacyn, Angel of Hope with Worldslayer and a Brink of Disaster attached to the Robe of Mirrors. Worldslayer triggers, player responds with Reknit on Robe of Mirrors. replace robe's destruction with regeneration, replace mystic's destruction with the robe's destruction ... Then, as with Wake Thrasher, Brink of Disaster won't trigger |
Quote:
| ... when two effects try to do mutually exclusive things to an object, such as destroying it twice, only one of these effects continues to exists, before being modified by further replacement effects. ... |
Where is this in the comp rules? Don't know where to look
for this.
Quote:
| The robe would\'t try to get destroyed and tapped at the same time. before applying regeneration, only one destruction event remains and then regeneration replaces it. |
Having trouble wrapping my brain around this, since the regeneration shield on Robe of Mirrors and the totem armor ability of Umbra Mystic are both replacement effects trying to apply at the same time.
I seem to remember reading something about replacement effects trying to replace the same event where you would choose which one to apply first, though I can't seem to find that now, plus these are not replacing the same event anyway, just trying to apply at the same time. I read the whole section on replacement effects and it didn't see anything about what happens when multiple replacement effects happen at the same time. Are they considered dependent? Does dependency even apply to replacement effects? So many questions...
Anyway, brilliantly complex question, Rocket_Knight :) Would like to see this question dealt with fully in a Cranial Insertion article.
#19
• Date: 2012-05-30 • Time: 01:50:22 •
Carsten
Davy, I think this is the rule you're looking for:
400.6. If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone, all players look at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event. If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that object's controller — or its owner if it has no controller — chooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous "destroy" effects.) Then the event moves the object.
Also, dependency is never a factor when applying competing replacement effects. It all comes down to the controller of the object that would be affected by the event that's being modified (with a dash of APNAP if there are multiple such players involved).
400.6. If an object would move from one zone to another, determine what event is moving the object. If the object is moving to a public zone, all players look at it to see if it has any abilities that would affect the move. Then any appropriate replacement effects, whether they come from that object or from elsewhere, are applied to that event. If any effects or rules try to do two or more contradictory or mutually exclusive things to a particular object, that object's controller — or its owner if it has no controller — chooses which effect to apply, and what that effect does. (Note that multiple instances of the same thing may be mutually exclusive; for example, two simultaneous "destroy" effects.) Then the event moves the object.
Also, dependency is never a factor when applying competing replacement effects. It all comes down to the controller of the object that would be affected by the event that's being modified (with a dash of APNAP if there are multiple such players involved).
#20
• Date: 2012-05-30 • Time: 14:56:13 •
Rocket_Knight
Salutations from the future! it seems like past me has made a mistake, so that's why I'm here.
Spoiler:
Actually, this will count as tapping and destroying at the same time. There's only one destruction aimed at the robe at first, coming from Worldslayer's ability. After applying Reknit, it's gone, replaced with tapping the robe. Then, totem armor, replaces destroying the mystic with destroying the robe.
So this is a tapped-equivalent scenario!
If totem armor applies first, the robe would want ot get destroyed twice (once from Worldslayer originally, and one from worldslayer trying to destroy the robe instead of the mystic). We choose one destruction, and then apply reknit. So the robe is saved. But like past me has said, there's still rink of Disaster looking to destroy it later after it taps.
Spoiler:
Actually, this will count as tapping and destroying at the same time. There's only one destruction aimed at the robe at first, coming from Worldslayer's ability. After applying Reknit, it's gone, replaced with tapping the robe. Then, totem armor, replaces destroying the mystic with destroying the robe.
So this is a tapped-equivalent scenario!
Quote:
| - If the the player applies totem armor first and then regeneration, will it save the enchantment? Why/How? |
#21
• Date: 2012-12-12 • Time: 22:15:54 •
Surely the permanents don't need to still be there for them to have not untapped. The trigger would go on the stack the first moment they can but the untap has caused something to trigger that isn't actually asking if that permanent is still around. Effects like that usually say "something triggers/happens if that permanent is still on the battlefield" and are usually specific like that. Either the land untaps or it doesn't. Whether the land is still there should be moot. Shouldn't it?